Should Women Write M/M? I say YES!

“Tommy” commented on a previous post where I explore the reasons why women write and read m/m. I think his remark brings up a valid point, so I’m copy/pasting it here:

It’s not that women “shouldn’t” write M/M, it’s that women who write ONLY M/M obviously and undeniably do so from a place that fetishizes and co-opts gay men.

Think about this situation…
You have a white author who ONLY writes books about being black, the black experience, black people having sex with other black people. That and that alone is ALL they write.

At some point, people are going to give them the side-eye. Not only can the author not speak with authority or legitimacy, but the privilege the author is exercising in exploiting the black identity would be taken as a slap in the face. No matter how well intended, the same exact thing is true for women who only write M/M.

But, not only is it exploitative and problematic, it ends up not being realistic or convincing. (Which is probably why M/M written women is generally consumed by other women.) It’s akin to having gay porn directed by a straight women (and yes, there is some out there). Gay men by FAR dislike and shrug off the porn – because it is just bad. Bad bad bad. It is some straight woman’s idea as to what gay sex is or isn’t and while that might appeal to other straight women, it is laughable to gay men.

Again, replace “gay” with “black.” Replace the gay identity with another. Why is it ok for self-proclaimed straight women to repeatedly co-opt and lay claim to a gay man’s identity when if they did it to any OTHER identity, it would be frowned upon. I mean, come on, some white woman writing about the black experience again and again and again. Especially about something as intimate as their sex lives?

Yeah, wouldn’t happen. Wouldn’t be accepted.

The question isn’t why do women write M/M but rather why do women feel they have the right?

It’s called being privileged and not owning up to it. It’s called being exploitative but finding a way to excuse it. It doesn’t matter how good the intentions, it’s wrong, and if we were talking about any other identity people would NOT put up with it.

We’re talking about fiction here. It’s been said again and again, if writers wrote only what they knew, there would be limited books available and a lot of them would be boring as fuck. I mean, how many people want to read about the guy who picks up garbage for a living? Unless he finds a dead body in with the paper and moldy food, who cares?

Most of us lead boring lives, uninteresting to anyone but ourselves. Forcing writers to write only what they know would lessen by far the number of books in the world.

Writers write. We invent, we imagine, we live vicariously through our characters. What’s wrong with that? If I didn’t write, I’d get only one life, but because I can write, I live many lives. I am enriched by my imagination and skill, and as a result, so are my readers.

This was my response to Tommy; a special thanks to him for taking the time to comment.

Many women, whatever their sexual orientation, write about gay men because it turns them on to imagine men being intimate with each other. You say this is wrong. You say they’re co-opting an experience that can never be theirs.

I say, whatever shines a light on men together romantically and sexually, normalizes that relationship and makes it easier to gain the equal rights we are entitled to.

Do some of them get it wrong? Fuck, yeah. I’ve read and edited some horrible m/m written by women. But a lot of them get it right, or near enough that it doesn’t matter, and all of them are furthering the cause of gay men being an acceptable part of society. They are helping us achieve marriage equality. They are helping strike down the laws that say we can be fired for being gay, we can’t live in this or that building because we prefer dick to vaginas, and we can’t hold public office because we love men, not women.

So I say, let them write m/m. Let them sell a zillion copies of their books, whether they’re written well or not, because it helps bring acceptance of men being with men in a way little else can.

Now it’s your turn. What do you think?


About Fenraven

Fenraven happily lives in south Florida, where it is really hot most of the year. Find him on Twitter, Google +, and Facebook by searching on 'fenraven'.
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42 Responses to Should Women Write M/M? I say YES!

  1. cindyls1969 says:

    I wonder sometimes how men feel about m/m romance written by women and the only opinion I can go with is that of the gay men I know and who’s opinions I’ve solicited. They are men whose ages range from 20 to 65 and are from all walks of life. None of them has ever express any offense being taken at my writing and trust me, I ask. I write out of admiration, not exploitation. And you’re right, if we only wrote what we know, then there wouldn’t be a lot left worth reading.

    • I’ve been on a couple of writer’s loops, and there are some men who vehemently oppose women writing m/m. However, the majority are supportive, and probably for the reason I mentioned and many others.

      Should women not write action adventure stories? Should J K Rowling not have written Harry Potter? I mean, she wrote those books from Harry’s PoV. Where does she get off, speaking on behalf of boys that way?

      🙂 In other words, any book can be written by any gender, and should be! Let’s get past the labels and just write the best books we can.

  2. jenxbyron says:

    I find this an interesting topic to me, since I have been writing and reading such stories since I became able to read and write (This says some things about my childhood that probably would be better left unsaid!). Certainly no one says that a straight man can’t write from a woman’s point of view, even sex, which he certainly doesn’t experience in the same way that we do. I am certain that when I wrote them, I researched and asked questions (just as I would anything I didn’t know first hand) so that I wouldn’t get things wrong, and I am sure that most women do the same. Describing an orgasm from any point of view is a pain in the ass. How do we describe the indescribable? All we can do is our best. I read m/m romance for a somewhat different reason, as well as the fact that the sex is hot. As a bisexual woman who has not been lucky in the love arena, it’s nice to just enjoy a love story without really comparing how the experience relates to mine. In other words, I’m not jealous! I can embrace my romantic side without pain, and that’s really amazing. So, whomever writes it, I’m all for it.

  3. I get where he’s coming from–you have to approach characters like characters, not gay characters or black characters. Their wants and desires should not be circumscribed by your assumptions about being gay or black.

    I think even worse than people getting gay or black wrong (and they do, as you pointed out) would be the loss of the gay and black characters from stories (so, again, ditto what you said). I almost didn’t make Jamie, the male lead of one of my stories, black, because I couldn’t be whiter. Like, grew up in the middle of NH white. I worried I’d get it wrong, but I figured worse than that would be the kind of silencing that happens when you consider something so outside your realm of experience, that you couldn’t possibly write about it. I think it also gives this sense that being black or gay is so foreign, you couldn’t possibly conceive of what it’s like, when we’ve all generally experienced being ostracized for something. We all have this starting place for what it feels like to be, in some way, a minority. We also shouldn’t limit our conception of being black or gay to simply the experience of being a minority, because that too is a silencing. I actually don’t address what that’s like in my stories, because that is something I feel I’d write badly.

    Gracious, whole lotta “that” in there, but I really should be planting roses. Great post Theo, excellent thoughts!

    • Terrific comment, Antionette. Thanks.

      Unless we were very very lucky, we have all suffered at the hands of others. It’s the human condition, where everything creative springs from. It’s why we can share our art with others. The connection is there no matter what gender we are, no matter the color of our skin, income level, or sexual orientation. Relating</i) is what it's all about.

  4. Allison says:

    I’m not sure why but this struck a chord with me. I am approaching this as a reader not a writer so maybe my take is different but at any rate, here it is.

    I would never discount an author because they weren’t the gender/orientation that they were writing about. If that was the case I would never read any fantasy books since it’s impossible to ask the local elf about his daily life or any murder mysteries unless they were written by a murderer or detective. There are many wonderful female authors that write great m/m fiction. The best are very careful to check their facts, verify things with their gay male friends if possible, and most importantly write well. Like any fiction, there are good writers and there are people that don’t care and just put junk out. Finding and supporting the good writers is the job of the reader.

    Fiction has the power to open people’s minds and to make them more aware; that should never be discounted. Will I ever fully understand what a gay man has to face on a daily basis? No, I don’t live that life and I can’t live that life as that is not how I was born. However, reading m/m has led me to read other LGBT fiction and to research the problems facing the community, all of which helps me to understand some of it. That is all we can expect of other people. I have always been a supporter of LGBT rights but it was always a passive role. As I’ve read more LGBT fiction and gotten to know more LGBT people on a personal basis I have gotten much more involved. I’ve found some wonderful people that are now friends due to reading these books. I hate to think that I wouldn’t have met them if I hadn’t been able to read the books written by both male and female authors.

    I think saying women can’t write gay men is missing one of the points of the equality movement entirely. I think that we’re (and because I am increasingly involved as an ally I think I can say we’re) trying to highlight the similarities among groups rather than putting everyone into their own separate boxes that just highlight the differences. M/M fiction helps people realize that and the more there is of it the more likely someone will read it and have their eyes opened. Of course it should be well-written and accurate but that is true of any fiction.

  5. Sarah_Madison says:

    As usual, Theo, this is an interesting and enlightening post–not the least of which is that you are not afraid of tackling topics that people have strong feelings about. I can definitely understand where Tommy is coming from–and if I only wrote M/M romance because I found the idea of picturing two guys together hot (not that this hurts), then I would be guilty of what Tommy suggests. But I write M/M romance for so many more reasons.

    I write it because it lets me explore different sides of my personality not constrained by gender. I know that sounds like a fairly frivolous excuse, but I’ve written from both the male POV and the female POV and it is very very different. And try as I might, there’s a certain mentality that creeps into my writing when I write from a woman’s POV that (I hope) is not there when I write from a man’s POV. I can’t begin to tell you how liberating that is. I write M/M romance too, because I appreciate and enjoy the dynamics of such a relationship–one on a more equal footing.

    That having been said, I don’t write much M/F romance under my M/M pen name because I don’t think there is a lot of crossover in audiences. Some, but I know many people who read one genre or the other–not both. So my decision to focus on one at this time was about not diversifying my audience too much at the outset. The irony is that I would probably make much more money in a different genre!

    What made me stand up and cheer, however, is your thoughts here: Do some of them get it wrong? Fuck, yeah. I’ve read and edited some horrible m/m written by women. But a lot of them get it right, or near enough that it doesn’t matter, and all of them are furthering the cause of gay men being an acceptable part of society. They are helping us achieve marriage equality. They are helping strike down the laws that say we can be fired for being gay, we can’t live in this or that building because we prefer dick to vaginas, and we can’t hold public office because we love men, not women.

    Because I once described myself as ‘just a supporter’ of GLBT rights. That I wasn’t a member of the community, I was just a supporter. I’m a supporter because I believe in the inherent rights of the things you stated here. I’m a supporter because I believe that when we stand together, all the minorities make a majority. I’m a supporter because it has long been my observation that the policy makers that are racist and homophobic are also strongly misogynistic–and that we all need each other. Civil rights aren’t something we fight for once and never have to worry about again. It’s a daily battle to gain ground and hold it against the erosion of the policies of parties that rise to power–and then change the rules so that no one else can ever have the power again.

    I read a book about the first space program for women in the US: it was called the Mercury 13. You should read the story–it’s a fascinating look at what these women did for the dream of space flight–and how they were lied to and betrayed by people who were actively looking for a way to prove women were inferior to men and did not belong in space. One of the jaw-dropping moments for me was when I read that at the time–and this was in the 1970s–it was *illegal* for a woman to rent a car without the co-signature of a male relative. This was apparently meant to prevent women from leaving their husbands.

    That was a comparatively short time ago–but it really sealed for me how privileged I am to have grown up in an era where women’s rights by far and large have been taken for granted. Now that I see what’s at stake, I’m even more angry and vocal about what we have to lose if we’re not paying attention.

    So this wasn’t meant to co-opt your post, Theo! I’m just trying to put into words how important I think it is for writing–for everyone to write the stories that capture their imagination–in order to continue to illuminate the past (and remind us of the way things were) and tantalize us with visions of what the future may be.

    I read recently that Mrs. Hudson on the television show Elementary is transgender. This is not a plot point–it just is. Star Trek:TOS gave us a cohesive bridge crew made up of people of all nationalities, races, and species. And they would *die* for each other. Was ST sexist with their short skirts and go-go boots? I know people now who BLAST Star Trek that was. What they can’t see is how instrumental it was in paving the way for a whole generation of people to see things differently from the mentality of the 1960s at that time.

    • Wonderful comment, Sarah. Thanks. You’re right about Star Trek. Yes, it was sexist back then. Even now, I question Uhura wearing such heavy eye makeup on the bridge. I mean, what’s up with that? Where does she find the time to put it on? Why doesn’t it get smeary? But that’s nitpicking. Uhura also shows girls how strong they can be, how they can take the lead and get things done. Speaking Klingon? “No problem. Get out of my way.”

  6. Karen says:

    If we tell people what they can and cannot write based on their gender, colour, sexual orientation or any other defining criteria isn’t that really just another form of censorship? I don’t care if the book I’m reading was written by a man, woman or my neighbours cat. What I do care about is, is it good? Can I slip into the story and loose myself in it? Is it believable? Does it get me on an intellectual & emotional level? At the end of it all did I enjoy what I was reading. It’s fiction I don’t look to fiction for an education in anything really I hope the author has done their research and any facts they are using are accurate, but at the end of the day if I want to learn about something then I rely on my research and nonfiction. Fiction is for entertainment purposes and if the author has entertained me, then I say job well done and really the specifics of who they are in terms of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc. don’t matter.

  7. amelia says:

    As a straight woman who reads and writes m/m romance, I found myself sort of… agreeing with some of Tommy’s points. I wondered: is the m/m romance genre fetishizing gay men? Treating them as “others”, fit for subject matter only when they serve as titillation? But I don’t think so, not really.

    Why do I read (and write) m/m? 1. m/f romance almost always has a weak or stereotypical female lead, which is annoying. 2. two men together is hot, I don’t care who you are. 3. (saddest reason) I don’t have to compare myself to the men in my stories, I am always on the outside looking in, so I don’t need to feel bad about my own (sometimes lacking) love life. (as jenxbyron said above)

    Also, I would add that romance in general is not realistic, whether m/m or m/f or f/f, or even more ludicrous, “ménage”. If sex scenes in romance novels were accurately depicted, they would be short and boring and no one would pay to read them.

    At the end of the day, love is love, and we all recognize when that’s written well, no matter who wrote it.

  8. Here’s another thing for y’all to consider. What about the men who write under female pen names? I personally know a couple. Is there a double standard here? Why are they never accused of co-opting the female experience? Aren’t women marginalized? Aren’t they considered second-class citizens? Aren’t they fighting for their rights as hard as LGBT people?

  9. Erin O'Quinn says:

    Hi, Fen,
    As usual I’d like to comment on the book without first reading the review, i.e., say a few things about your article without reading the reactions.

    I write M/F and M/M. I also write YA. I’ve written from the POV of a 15-year-old-girl, a 60-something lady, a young Welsh pony trainer, a middle-aged former Roman soldier, an overweight yearner for romance, and lots more.

    Of all the works I’ve written (15 novels so far), of all the characters I’ve created, I’m finding the homoerotic pairings the most revealing . . . the most “real” to me, a woman . . . the closest to my best work. It’s an odyssey, for sure. But when I have gay men beginning to respond with huge enthusiasm to my work, I think I’m slowly getting there.

    With me, it’s not so much a vicarious sliding under the skin of people whose sensations I can never feel. It’s a kind of channeling, an organic odyssey to places I can somehow feel and see, smell and taste.

    Mind you, it’s a slow journey. Each book gets better. Each coupling becomes closer to the bone. Whether it’s man-on-man or any other combination, somehow my growing skills are becoming able to describe it.

    Now, I will say that I’ve read plenty of M/M books by women that are failures of monumental proportions. The men are women with a penchant for pegging. The psyche is what I’d describe as “the female mystique.” But guess what? Even those books, in extolling the erotic relationship between men, are helping to open eyes and change minds about the monster called homophobia.

    So whether the stories are created by men or by women; whether they are clumsy and unbelievable or deeply evocative of the human condition—I say, good for them. Good for us. Let the subject be more than a blog article. Let the words flow, and the hatred (please God) disappear.

  10. Luxie Ryder says:

    I think the comment from Tommy borders on telling women that they don’t have a right to either read or write about subjects they find arousing and exciting. I strongly object to the idea that I should be told whether I can enjoy something or not, and shamed for liking it. It’s a little sexist, don’t you think, for a guy to be telling women that their desires and fantasies are wrong and that they don’t have a right to them? I don’t get who we are exploiting – imaginary characters who were only created to please ourselves and others? Why does anyone need to speak with authority on a particular subject for their story to be enjoyable? I’ve written about quite a few vampires and I’m pretty sure I’ve never met one. In real life, I am sure being abducted and bitten would be terrifying rather than arousing! I’m also pretty sure Thomas Harris never skinned somebody before he wrote The Silence of the Lambs.

    When it comes to sex, no matter what the sub-topic, it always seems that there are some guys out there who think it is their job to tell women what they should/shouldn’t like or want. We don’t need permission to write/read/watch the kind of stories we like.

    • Another terrific angle! Thanks for your comment.

      Maybe Tommy was nervous about women grabbing a piece of the pie he thinks belongs solely to gay men. I say we’re all in this together, and whatever any of us can do to illuminate the human condition is GOOD.

      • Luxie Ryder says:

        Totally agree. I am a mixed race, middle aged, straight woman. My mum is English and my dad was a Black Canadian. I vote Labour and love chocolate. If I limited my story telling to only those things I have personal experience of, they’d be pretty short and all about the same thing! 🙂

  11. As a woman who writes M/M erotica, I completely understand Tommy’s concerns and apprehensions about women writing M/M. Nobody wants to have their sexuality fetishized and turned into a masturbatory aid by by someone who doesn’t share it, so he has a very valid point about badly written M/M stories by women.

    That being said, marginalization of gay men is most emphatically not my goal when I write M/M erotica. To echo what another poster said earlier, it gives me the chance to explore a relationship dynamic that is very different from a M/F dynamic, which gives me a wider variety of thematic options when I write. My characters aren’t literary sex toys — they’re used to tell whatever story I’m trying to convey. If a story works best with a M/F pairing, I’ll use that. If a story calls for a F/F pairing, I’ll use that. But I don’t want to be excluded from using a specific gender pairing simply because I don’t possess their genitalia — that in itself is sexist and censoring.

    And as I am fully aware that I don’t possess male genitalia, I do my research when I write M/M. I read and watch gay erotica made by and for gay men, run my plots and sex scenes past some very patient and understanding gay friends, check to make sure that my male characters are indeed guys and not chicks in male drag and are reacting as a male would to specific circumstances (and sometimes that’s 180 degrees from how I would react, so that’s educational in itself). One friend complained that he never sees intercrural sex scenes in M/M erotica — I added one to my first novel. Another friend explained the (if you’ll excuse the phrase) ins and outs of anal sex and how not all men enjoy it — I wrote a failsex scene where the first-time bottom realizes he just doesn’t like it, so they do something else.

    I freely admit that I enjoy watching two (or more) attractive men have sex — it’s more of what I like to look at, after all. And yeah, it’s hella fun for me to write M/M scenes. But please believe me when I say that my M/M works are not intended to marginalize anyone’s sexuality — I’m simply trying to tell a story that resonates with both myself and my readers.

  12. The biggest thing, to me (as a reader), is that, whatever your gender/sexuality/ethnicity/whatever… no two people will experience the same event the same way, anyway. Therefore, the ONLY person who can say if a given description of an event or emotion is authentic is the person to which it happens — and even then, they can only speak for their own experience. So whatever reaction you might have in a given situation is not necessarily what another person experience the same series of events would have. Unless it’s an obviously impossible situation (in a “people’s bodies just don’t WORK like that” kind of way, if you know what I mean), who can say? Maybe something that doesn’t work for you or Tommy or whomever actually resonates with someone else.

    Sometimes, changing something about a situation (for example, the gender of one of the people involved) can highlight certain ridiculousness of the situation. A lot of contemporary M/F romance seems to operate under the assumption that all women secretly want to get married, stay home and raise the babies, with little logic or characterization behind it — even successful, aggressive businesswomen who have *stated* no intention of doing such a thing, or who are functionally unable to carry a child (there’s always a miracle pregnancy that turns her 180 degrees). Really, making a choice like whether to stay home with the kids and WHO will stay home with them is, in my experience at least, a much more complicated issue. But when both of the protags are male, it completely changes the dynamic of that particular relationship, and forces an actual *conversation* about the situation.

    Anyway, my point is that Tommy made a fairly sweeping generalization that no situation that might be faced by the protagonists is something that a woman could ever possibly understand, or have any sort of insight into, as well as assuming that anything that is of interest to women is completely outside the interest and understanding of gay men. And I think that that’s underestimating women AND men of whatever culture or sexuality.

  13. A.M.B. says:

    While I believe that personal experience adds authenticity to fiction, I would never make a blanket statement that “women shouldn’t write m/m romance.” Some women write it well, while others don’t, and all of it should be available for the reading public to decide whether it suits them (and it’s not like all gay men write it well). I also think you make a good point about it furthering equality. Limiting m/m romance to gay male writers isolates and stigmatizes same-sex relationships.

    • Thanks for that, A.M.B. I think anyone who wants to write m/m romance/erotica/whatever should do it. As I stated way back when, it helps to normalize gay men, making them understood and accepted by a mostly straight society. That understanding and acceptance has been a long time coming.

      When I think back over the last year, I’m amazed and humbled by the strides that have been taken on behalf of LGBT people everywhere. Our allies have been outspoken and plentiful. People who write m/m books, whether they be men, women, or otherwise, have aided the cause. Thank you!

  14. Kastil says:

    Well, since I write both m/f and m/m I guess I don’t ” fetishize and co-opt gay men.” In any account, all writing takes a fair amount of research. While I have seen ‘chick with a dick’ syndrome, I also know that gay men come in all shapes and sizes. The best man from my wedding finally ‘came out’ and he and his partner are differ in mannerisms along with some of his friends I’ve had the pleasure of meeting. Writing m/m isn’t all about the sex. It’s about the emotion, and for a couple of my books, the historical aspect of being gay in a certain time period. Oh, there’s that research aspect again.

    Writing what you know is easy. Researching and pushing yourself opens a world of possibilities. I write what I want to write and I don’t let what might be a niche market dictate that.

  15. Piper Kay says:

    My outlook is this: Romance is romance, for any genre, the story tells itself and says it all. Whether a real life situation, or a paranormal or whatnot, the story tells itself by what the author feels in their heart and is passionate about. Mine happens to be the mm erotic romance, which many gay men seem to approve of, not behind some female fetish I have.

    • I have been told there are men who refuse to buy m/m if a woman wrote it. They don’t think females can adequately write the experience of being a gay man. I admit I’ve read some abysmal stuff from a few women writers; replace the male pronouns with female for the character who is gentler, sweeter, nicer, etc. and it reads exactly like het romance. In these particular stories, penetration is the goal, the one thing that cements their relationship and proclaims love love love. (gag)

  16. Karen says:

    I came back to see what thoughts people have added on this subject and in doing so I decided to reread Tommy’s posting and I really just want to address one statement that he made which is:

    ‘The question isn’t why do women write M/M but rather why do women feel they have the right?’

    Before responding to this I want to clearly state I am not a writer of any genre, I am an avid reader and have no desire to be anything more. So back to Tommy’s statement my response is because it’s all about rights and the fact that we have them as individuals. Men and women the world over have fought and died to ensure this. So please don’t belittle their sacrifice by trying to undo it. Women and men have the right to choose to read , write & believe what they want without someone else deciding for them. So maybe before deciding that women should not write M/M fiction we all need to be grateful for and appreciate the fact that they can make that choice and that we as individuals can decided whether or not to read what they have written. Let’s all take a step forward and celebrate that instead.

    • 🙂 Very nice, Karen.

      Taken on its own, that sentence has a sexist ring to it. As I point out in another comment, there are men writing romances and erotica under female pen names, and no one seems to question their right to do it. It’s terrific we live in a time when people can write about what moves them, inspires them, or just turns them on. That’s a particular freedom I’d hate to see taken away.

  17. amelia says:

    I’m starting to feel bad for “Tommy”. I know, I’m such a girl (kidding)

    Actually, what I wanted to add is… that when something which is/was considered “marginalized” (m/m sex & love) becomes “normalized”, it then enters the public domain, so to speak. So then, if you truly want to be accepted as “normal”, you need to give up your exclusive right to your experience. Your group is now open to the public, and we can all talk about it! Yay!

  18. siobhanmuir says:

    When I first heard of M/M romance I had the same question Tommy does: How can women, and straight women in particular, know anything about the sexual interests or emotions of gay men? However, I realized it’s not really about gay or straight, or men or women. It’s about understanding the love and intimate connection between humans, with a little bit of fantasy to spice it up. Writers try to show the human condition, and romance writers give the HEA to beat back some of the misery. Some of my favorite romances are M/M because the author grasped the love, compassion, and connection between the characters – the same elements I see in my heterosexual marriage. So the sex of the author doesn’t matter as long as they get that connection, and there are no “rights” associated with writing other than those shared (or not) by the publishing industry. The more positive light shed on LGBT issues, the better, and I’ll read it if it’s well written. 🙂 Great post, Theo.

  19. Pingback: why m/m romance? | ameliabishop

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